Comments on: Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/ Living on Earth as Citizens of Heaven Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:02:04 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: The Best of Kingdom People: 6-10 « Kingdom People http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-23347 The Best of Kingdom People: 6-10 « Kingdom People Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:45:34 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-23347 [...] #6. Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point [...] [...] #6. Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point [...]

]]> By: Book Review: Theology of the Reformers « Kingdom People http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-23078 Book Review: Theology of the Reformers « Kingdom People Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:55:56 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-23078 [...] that Calvin affirmed the later Calvinist concept of “particular redemption.” Click here for my thoughts on that [...] [...] that Calvin affirmed the later Calvinist concept of “particular redemption.” Click here for my thoughts on that [...]

]]> By: trevinwax http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-6134 trevinwax Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:46:52 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-6134 Thanks David for the tip. I'll look it up on Google. Thanks David for the tip. I’ll look it up on Google.

]]> By: David Turner http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-6133 David Turner Fri, 27 Apr 2007 23:09:07 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-6133 The best view I've read to bring the apparent clash between Limited and Unlimited passages together into a good systematic understanding is "God's Wrath Postponed" by D Michael Turner. It can be previewed in Google Books. Your views are close, but slightly different. The best view I’ve read to bring the apparent clash between Limited and Unlimited passages together into a good systematic understanding is “God’s Wrath Postponed” by D Michael Turner. It can be previewed in Google Books.
Your views are close, but slightly different.

]]> By: Chris Tan http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-2067 Chris Tan Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:54:44 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-2067 One must remember that the Scripture is complete in its entirety. The Will of God is revealed and hence, whoever is to expound or comment on the Scripture must do it in full and not just what you want people to hear. As this subject is about the "atonement", make up your mind whether it's limited or unlimited. The Scripture clearly defines that "Christ shall save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21)." And Jesus even says, "and he calleth his own sheep by name... I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:3,14)" In these verses alone, it clearly demonstrate that the Atonement by Jesus Christ is indeed "limited". Yes, there is a particular group of sinful people, whom the Scripture calls, the "elect" that will receive mercy from God. "For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)" So then, are you able to go to Christ of your own will (the Scripture does not preach such a gospel) or because God has drawn you to Christ (in John 6:44, Christ proclaim "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..."). And finally, when was the "elect" chosen? When he was on earth and he chose Christ? Far be from this gospel of confusion, Paul in Ephesians 1:4 says "According as he hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world..." The doctrine of sovereign election is established. And in the lives of Jacob and Esau, Paul says in Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth..." Praise and glory to God. Amen. One must remember that the Scripture is complete in its entirety. The Will of God is revealed and hence, whoever is to expound or comment on the Scripture must do it in full and not just what you want people to hear. As this subject is about the “atonement”, make up your mind whether it’s limited or unlimited.

The Scripture clearly defines that “Christ shall save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).” And Jesus even says, “and he calleth his own sheep by name… I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:3,14)” In these verses alone, it clearly demonstrate that the Atonement by Jesus Christ is indeed “limited”. Yes, there is a particular group of sinful people, whom the Scripture calls, the “elect” that will receive mercy from God. “For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)”

So then, are you able to go to Christ of your own will (the Scripture does not preach such a gospel) or because God has drawn you to Christ (in John 6:44, Christ proclaim “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…”).

And finally, when was the “elect” chosen? When he was on earth and he chose Christ? Far be from this gospel of confusion, Paul in Ephesians 1:4 says “According as he hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world…” The doctrine of sovereign election is established. And in the lives of Jacob and Esau, Paul says in Romans 9:11, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth…”

Praise and glory to God. Amen.

]]> By: Coops was here http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-674 Coops was here Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:23:06 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-674 <strong>Exploring Atonement</strong> So, over the next [I don’t know how long] I have decided to do a series on Exploring the Atonement. Being the seasoned theologian and all (sarcastic), I thought it would be a fantastic topic to get to know better - especially since I’ve hea... Exploring Atonement

So, over the next [I don’t know how long] I have decided to do a series on Exploring the Atonement.
Being the seasoned theologian and all (sarcastic), I thought it would be a fantastic topic to get to know better – especially since I’ve hea…

]]> By: Richard Coords http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-240 Richard Coords Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:04:21 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-240 One thing about the atonement is that it is the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world. Not all will be redeemed but all have been purchased. In the universal purchase, all have been bought. That means that you have a new owner. The new owner still expects to be paid. You simply now have a new owner to pay. The advantage of having Christ as the new owner of humanity is that He agrees to cover your debt, in its entirety, simply by trusting in Him. That's His special offer. You didn't get that offer with the old owner, but you do with the new owner. However, if you do not take His offer, then your debt remains, which will be paid in Hell until every last cent is paid up. That is the distinction between the universal purchase, and individual redemption. Richard Coords Editor of ExaminingCalvinism.com One thing about the atonement is that it is the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world. Not all will be redeemed but all have been purchased. In the universal purchase, all have been bought. That means that you have a new owner. The new owner still expects to be paid. You simply now have a new owner to pay. The advantage of having Christ as the new owner of humanity is that He agrees to cover your debt, in its entirety, simply by trusting in Him. That’s His special offer. You didn’t get that offer with the old owner, but you do with the new owner. However, if you do not take His offer, then your debt remains, which will be paid in Hell until every last cent is paid up. That is the distinction between the universal purchase, and individual redemption.

Richard Coords
Editor of ExaminingCalvinism.com

]]> By: holmegm http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-225 holmegm Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:07:00 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-225 >No I did not miss the point of the post >Mr Sidoro. I simply refuse to engage in the >intellectual debate. I chose instead to >offer a more practical approach. The ironic thing is that it is what you wrote that is in fact Phariseeism. "Obey Jesus' radical commands of action, but you'll have to do it all under your own power; no supernatural help for you" is pure works of the flesh. Destined to fail in the long run; nothing but filthy rags before God. >No I did not miss the point of the post
>Mr Sidoro. I simply refuse to engage in the
>intellectual debate. I chose instead to
>offer a more practical approach.

The ironic thing is that it is what you
wrote that is in fact Phariseeism.

“Obey Jesus’ radical commands of action, but
you’ll have to do it all under your own power;
no supernatural help for you” is pure works of
the flesh. Destined to fail in the long run;
nothing but filthy rags before God.

]]> By: trevinwax http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-222 trevinwax Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:04:06 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-222 The reason my article doesn't answer the questions you have posed is because I believe the questions themselves are misplaced. God's intention is that He be all-in-all. The story of the world is about His glory, first and foremost. When we place our personal salvation in the center of the picture, our questions get skewed. That's why the "limited" and "unlimited" positions seem to both have biblical support. The NT writers were not addressing that issue, because they saw their own salvation within the overarching plan of God for redeeming all of creation (humanity, of course, included - which is why an atonement is necessary to begin with). The reason my article doesn’t answer the questions you have posed is because I believe the questions themselves are misplaced. God’s intention is that He be all-in-all. The story of the world is about His glory, first and foremost. When we place our personal salvation in the center of the picture, our questions get skewed. That’s why the “limited” and “unlimited” positions seem to both have biblical support. The NT writers were not addressing that issue, because they saw their own salvation within the overarching plan of God for redeeming all of creation (humanity, of course, included – which is why an atonement is necessary to begin with).

]]> By: Will http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-221 Will Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:53:37 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-221 Well said, Jonathan Brooks. I appreciate the post and the reminders it brings, however it still fails to answer the questions so wrapped up in the atonement debate. It is probably not accurate to say that the debate is missing the point. That, of course, would depend on what "the point" is. Your post correctly reminds us of the universal effects of Christ's cross-work, however, it does not answer the question of what eternal effects Christ's work has on those who do not believe. Nor does it answer the question of what God's intention was, as it relates to us humans, in sending his Son to die. Those are the issues the particular/universal debate addresses. Well said, Jonathan Brooks. I appreciate the post and the reminders it brings, however it still fails to answer the questions so wrapped up in the atonement debate. It is probably not accurate to say that the debate is missing the point. That, of course, would depend on what “the point” is. Your post correctly reminds us of the universal effects of Christ’s cross-work, however, it does not answer the question of what eternal effects Christ’s work has on those who do not believe. Nor does it answer the question of what God’s intention was, as it relates to us humans, in sending his Son to die. Those are the issues the particular/universal debate addresses.

]]> By: Manuel http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-220 Manuel Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:50:06 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-220 Interesting point of view. Unfortunately, it is clear that "God sent His Son" and "Jesus died on the cross" for humans. We are the ones that need atonement. The earth was only cursed after the Fall. Interesting point of view. Unfortunately, it is clear that “God sent His Son” and “Jesus died on the cross” for humans. We are the ones that need atonement. The earth was only cursed after the Fall.

]]> By: Jonathan Brooks http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-219 Jonathan Brooks Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:27:29 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-219 I think it is a stretch to say the debate misses the point. Instead, it seems that this article misses the point of the debate. The point of the debate between particular atonement and unlimited atonement is concerned with the relationship between the work of Christ on the cross and humanity. The word "atonement" itself locks us into this. The physical world was not atoned for. Yes, the world will be restored, but the physical world had no sins for which atonement was necessary. So, it seems that we have to accept the limited confines of the debate, which is about humanity and the cross, and not the rest of the physical world. I do appreciate, however, the healthy reminder that the work of Christ does indeed have cosmic implications. I think it is a stretch to say the debate misses the point. Instead, it seems that this article misses the point of the debate. The point of the debate between particular atonement and unlimited atonement is concerned with the relationship between the work of Christ on the cross and humanity. The word “atonement” itself locks us into this. The physical world was not atoned for. Yes, the world will be restored, but the physical world had no sins for which atonement was necessary. So, it seems that we have to accept the limited confines of the debate, which is about humanity and the cross, and not the rest of the physical world.
I do appreciate, however, the healthy reminder that the work of Christ does indeed have cosmic implications.

]]> By: Kingdom People: “Why ‘Limited’ and ‘Unlimited’ Atonement Debates Miss the Point” « Handiwork http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-218 Kingdom People: “Why ‘Limited’ and ‘Unlimited’ Atonement Debates Miss the Point” « Handiwork Tue, 09 Jan 2007 14:08:53 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-218 [...] Miss the Point” Posted by lbc3 under Christianity , Atonement , Limited Atonement  Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point « Kingdom People [...] [...] Miss the Point” Posted by lbc3 under Christianity , Atonement , Limited Atonement  Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point « Kingdom People [...]

]]> By: Limited and Unlimited Atonement Miss the Point « Theologian http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-217 Limited and Unlimited Atonement Miss the Point « Theologian Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:56:40 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-217 [...] 9th, 2007 A really good article at Kingdom People Blog regarding limited and unlimited atonement. Here are some [...] [...] 9th, 2007 A really good article at Kingdom People Blog regarding limited and unlimited atonement. Here are some [...]

]]> By: revish http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-215 revish Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:24:23 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-215 Thanks for the thoughts. Thanks for the thoughts.

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